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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Most of us recently have been talking about Cabs , Turbo S , GTS Gt3's , and upper trim level cars . However not much attention is given to the most entry level car . With a USA price disparity of half a Turbo S the range is tremendous .Many average drivers might never be able to take a base car to its limits . Its really that good of a car . The smaller Turbos offer a very seamless feel to them , Eventually Porsche will offer a Carrera T with some of the performance options standard . It may even offer a manual so people will have choices .

Recently.a friend asked me to build him a no frills base car . He did have some must haves . He wanted sport exhaust and sport chrono . Of the two I feel sport chrono is the more important but he wanted both . His choice was white . I gave him this . The Porsche Code

Everything on a base car is expensive . I upgraded the wheel a little because the smallest wheel would be hard to clean , He wanted premium package but that could be shaved down. Sport exhaust could have just been sport tailpipes . He could go to a metallic color but its not necessary . White is free , timeless , easy to match, looks great at night , reflects heat in the day , and is one of Porsche two race colors (Gt silver is the other) . He considered a sunroof . Thats 2K . I told him put the roof in a Macan .. not a 911 . He laughed . His wants differ from my neurosis .

In the end he went with a cayman GTS manual . Its 15K less. The base 911 is every bit a 911 .

I leave you with this . Fast forward to 11 min 40 sec . The beginning he talk of the other trims . He does try to draw a comparison but its at 11 min 40 that it all vanishes .He gets in the base car and suddenly the fun kicks in.

Granted .. I am spending a lot more to buy my car but I wouldn't have to. Even the most simple and basic car is still a champion .
 

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I completely agree. The base is an amazing car and for the average enthusiast it would be a perfect fit. My base (991.2) does everything I ask it for, of course within allowable street legal limitations. Wether you are going to a restaurant, grocery shopping or a leisurely driving around, this base will put a smile on your face every time, guaranteed. Even if this avg enthusiast decides to take it to the track he/she will have a blast. They will not break any track records but nonetheless will have fun and love their car even more!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I completely agree. The base is an amazing car and for the average enthusiast it would be a perfect fit. My base (991.2) does everything I ask it for, of course within allowable street legal limitations. Wether you are going to a restaurant, grocery shopping or a leisurely driving around, this base will put a smile on your face every time, guaranteed. Even if this avg enthusiast decides to take it to the track he/she will have a blast. They will not break any track records but nonetheless will have fun and love their car even more!
Carwow did a back to back short circuit track comparison to a Gt3 . The base car was stripped . The Gt3 was loaded .
Although faster the Gt3 is pure track ,. The base is street/track . In real world driving its quite a value.
 

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While back there was a vid (maybe you posted it) comparing base 911 to Mustang gt and a Corvette. The two latter ones did not do well against almost 1/2 the hp base 911.
 

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I completely agree. The base is an amazing car and for the average enthusiast it would be a perfect fit. My base (991.2) does everything I ask it for, of course within allowable street legal limitations. Wether you are going to a restaurant, grocery shopping or a leisurely driving around, this base will put a smile on your face every time, guaranteed. Even if this avg enthusiast decides to take it to the track he/she will have a blast. They will not break any track records but nonetheless will have fun and love their car even more!
If the manual was available in the base model, that's what I would get. Could you explain the logic behind Porsche's strategy? I'm sure lots of enthusiasts would grab a MT base 911.

I can understand not having a MT in a TT or TTS since those drivers are mostly interested in maximum "speeed". But a base model SHOULD offer the option of a manual gearbox. There, I said it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
If the manual was available in the base model, that's what I would get. Could you explain the logic behind Porsche's strategy? I'm sure lots of enthusiasts would grab a MT base 911.

I can understand not having a MT in a TT or TTS since those drivers are mostly interested in maximum "speeed". But a base model SHOULD offer the option of a manual gearbox. There, I said it.
Porsche trying for years to phase out the manual. Other car companies have already faced it out from Ferrari to others . Is a timeless component but it is also dated . Porsche will likely offer it in the Carrera T which is the base engine.

Every manual car has an engine over rev history. There are six levels of over and gone revs , When a driver hits ithe rev limiter it causes minor engine damage Stored in the ecu . Levels one and two are not that serious. Level three is questionable. Level 45 and six are much more serious. Level six is engine damage. PDK in contrast cuts off at the limit even in manual mode . In terms of engine preservation it’s worth ticking that box just for that point alone.

I would never talk anyone out of a manual. I myself would even buy a manual in certain cars. However one cannot ignore the advantages of PDK in order to just cling to the manual. Both of the merits I need has the place in this car.
 

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Porsche trying for years to phase out the manual. Other car companies have already faced it out from Ferrari to others . Is a timeless component but it is also dated . Porsche will likely offer it in the Carrera T which is the base engine.

Every manual car has an engine over rev history. There are six levels of over and gone revs , When a driver hits ithe rev limiter it causes minor engine damage Stored in the ecu . Levels one and two are not that serious. Level three is questionable. Level 45 and six are much more serious. Level six is engine damage. PDK in contrast cuts off at the limit even in manual mode . In terms of engine preservation it’s worth ticking that box just for that point alone.

I would never talk anyone out of a manual. I myself would even buy a manual in certain cars. However one cannot ignore the advantages of PDK in order to just cling to the manual. Both of the merits I need has the place in this car.
Larry, you made me stay up till 1AM reading articles on "over-reving", "Why manual transmissions are dying...and what'll end them for good" and "the big problems with modern manual transmissions"! I'm now more educated but exhausted and depressed since I just have so much fun changing gears myself. Even if I'm not the best heal and toe shifting driver.

But I understand that you were just answering my question about Porsche's (and others) long term strategy with the manual. You didn't say that the "over-rev issue" should discourage me from getting a stick and spoil my pleasure. We both agree that there's no competition. they're two different things. Some of us just prefer a stick shift, and that ought to be enough. I understand ALL the advantages of PDK and had lots of fun driving one before placing my order. But when I drive manual, I'm more concentrated, I feel in charge, have more fun and less prone to distraction. I can drive the Macan for miles while my brain is thinking of a million things. Not with my MT roadsters.

That said, does that mean if I decide to get a CPO manual I should get the stored info in the ECU? Is it something the dealer would disclose?

In the end, you did make me doubt my decision so I had for watch another silly video of Nick Murray to cheer me up. You don't have to watch it. If you do, I hope it won't be as "painful" as the last one I shared with you. LOL!

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Larry, you made me stay up till 1AM reading articles on "over-reving", "Why manual transmissions are dying...and what'll end them for good" and "the big problems with modern manual transmissions"! I'm now more educated but exhausted and depressed since I just have so much fun changing gears myself. Even if I'm not the best heal and toe shifting driver.

But I understand that you were just answering my question about Porsche's (and others) long term strategy with the manual. You didn't say that the "over-rev issue" should discourage me from getting a stick and spoil my pleasure. We both agree that there's no competition. they're two different things. Some of us just prefer a stick shift, and that ought to be enough. I understand ALL the advantages of PDK and had lots of fun driving one before placing my order. But when I drive manual, I'm more concentrated, I feel in charge, have more fun and less prone to distraction. I can drive the Macan for miles while my brain is thinking of a million things. Not with my MT roadsters.

That said, does that mean if I decide to get a CPO manual I should get the stored info in the ECU? Is it something the dealer would disclose?

In the end, you did make me doubt my decision so I had for watch another silly video of Nick Murray to cheer me up. You don't have to watch it. If you do, I hope it won't be as "painful" as the last one I shared with you. LOL!
Neither Nick nor I have claimed to be experts . He is a car owner . He's not even a typical owner given that he has had two Porsche buy backs of former cars. To be fair he loved both his manual in. his last car and his PDK in the first . I share that in common with him . I am not a "manual only" nor a "PDK only " guy either . I like both and so does he . I would have a blast driving that red car just as the guy in Smoking tire enjoyed the manual gentian cab .

Over rev history is not the end of the world but it is just one of many reasons going to which to choose and why . On a positive side a 10 year old car with a blown clutch is a lot cheaper to repair than a PDK failure so its not all bad for the manual .

Thar rev match blip that Nick praised has also been criticized for becoming an electronic driving aid . Nick even calls it "cheating" . I did not put PDCC on my car because I like a more purist drive . Rear axle steering is an experiment . I am ambivalent about it . Granted if Walter Rohl or Christian Gephart break a Nurburging record with a 911 variant it will likely be a sport build with all the gadgets . A guy like me driving my car to the pool to go swimming might not need it .

That does not mean I am ready to spend 150+K and give up things that hinder performance in a performance car . In my car I did give up the seat . Sport buckets weigh less than 18 way and are great seats . If I were 30 instead of 64 I would have done it . I even considered it at 64 . What stopped me was that in 5 years I will, e eyeballing 70 .

Also note that the base has no manual (yet) . The S manual is not as good as the GTS . with a smaller lever, shorter throw , and more aggressive throttle map the GTS is the 7 speed du jour .The Gt3 is the best manual . Mind you my friend who has a Gt3 Touring that he is expecting in April originally spec his car with a manual . He gave me a long presentation why it was a no brainer for him . Its the last traditional NA manual off any elite 911. THEN he drove a PDK Gt3 which his friend has . He changed his order !!!!!! Its unheard of with a touring practically . PDK in the Gt3 was that good !!!

PDK is not going to be like your Macan . On the other hand with the top down on a sunny day it would be fun but I didn't even want to give a sunroof . I chose a carbon fiber roof which is the extreme opposite of a. cab .

Porsche makes many choices , There is something there for everyone .

That was even my point in the first post . A person on a more lean budget can get a base car and not spend 250K (Turbo S) to still find fun with his car .
 

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When I was looking for my c2cab I test drove one c2cabs MT. It was a 2019 and cannot remember if it was 6 or 7spd. The shifter felt a bit long but that was ok. What surprised me, was the clutch pedal travel, it was quite long….very similar to old A4s. Much longer than VWs or BMWs. Ended up with c2cab pdk and for Miami it is perfect.

I was soooo on the fence with the GTS, really leaning to MT. My wife’s cons were: Ottawa traffic is no better than Miami traffic, she loves shopping and has to park at under ground garages (as well as her office under ground garage) and very often there is traffic on the ramps. I understand the car has the hill park gizmo but even with that you will still be reving and slightly burning the clutch.
Larry’s cons are well documented on this and other forums.
Had a nice chat with my SA last Thursday. Interestingly and without me mentioning anything, he said that he has heard of complaints regarding gear spacing between 3/5/7.
 

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Neither Nick nor I have claimed to be experts . He is a car owner . He's not even a typical owner given that he has had two Porsche buy backs of former cars. To be fair he loved both his manual in. his last car and his PDK in the first . I share that in common with him . I am not a "manual only" nor a "PDK only " guy either . I like both and so does he . I would have a blast driving that red car just as the guy in Smoking tire enjoyed the manual gentian cab .

Over rev history is not the end of the world but it is just one of many reasons going to which to choose and why . On a positive side a 10 year old car with a blown clutch is a lot cheaper to repair than a PDK failure so its not all bad for the manual .

Thar rev match blip that Nick praised has also been criticized for becoming an electronic driving aid . Nick even calls it "cheating" . I did not put PDCC on my car because I like a more purist drive . Rear axle steering is an experiment . I am ambivalent about it . Granted if Walter Rohl or Christian Gephart break a Nurburging record with a 911 variant it will likely be a sport build with all the gadgets . A guy like me driving my car to the pool to go swimming might not need it .

That does not mean I am ready to spend 150+K and give up things that hinder performance in a performance car . In my car I did give up the seat . Sport buckets weigh less than 18 way and are great seats . If I were 30 instead of 64 I would have done it . I even considered it at 64 . What stopped me was that in 5 years I will, e eyeballing 70 .

Also note that the base has no manual (yet) . The S manual is not as good as the GTS . with a smaller lever, shorter throw , and more aggressive throttle map the GTS is the 7 speed du jour .The Gt3 is the best manual . Mind you my friend who has a Gt3 Touring that he is expecting in April originally spec his car with a manual . He gave me a long presentation why it was a no brainer for him . Its the last traditional NA manual off any elite 911. THEN he drove a PDK Gt3 which his friend has . He changed his order !!!!!! Its unheard of with a touring practically . PDK in the Gt3 was that good !!!

PDK is not going to be like your Macan . On the other hand with the top down on a sunny day it would be fun but I didn't even want to give a sunroof . I chose a carbon fiber roof which is the extreme opposite of a. cab .

Porsche makes many choices , There is something there for everyone .

That was even my point in the first post . A person on a more lean budget can get a base car and not spend 250K (Turbo S) to still find fun with his car .
Thanks again Larry. But you didn't answer my question. I'm still hoping to get a new 992 but if the next ship sinks at the bottom of the sea and I have to consider buying a CPO this was my question regarding the over-rev and potential engine damage:

"if I decide to get a CPO manual, should I get the stored info in the ECU? Is it something the dealer would disclose?". Would the average Jo (or Charles, that's me) understand the "numbers"?
 

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When I was looking for my c2cab I test drove one c2cabs MT. It was a 2019 and cannot remember if it was 6 or 7spd. The shifter felt a bit long but that was ok. What surprised me, was the clutch pedal travel, it was quite long….very similar to old A4s. Much longer than VWs or BMWs. Ended up with c2cab pdk and for Miami it is perfect.

I was soooo on the fence with the GTS, really leaning to MT. My wife’s cons were: Ottawa traffic is no better than Miami traffic, she loves shopping and has to park at under ground garages (as well as her office under ground garage) and very often there is traffic on the ramps. I understand the car has the hill park gizmo but even with that you will still be reving and slightly burning the clutch.
Larry’s cons are well documented on this and other forums.
Had a nice chat with my SA last Thursday. Interestingly and without me mentioning anything, he said that he has heard of complaints regarding gear spacing between 3/5/7.
I'm reading and learning so much from you guys but I ask you: would the "very average" 911 driver notice the "gear spacing between 3/5/7"? Unfortunately, I can't drive one in order to make my own opinion and the vids I've seen on the 992 manual transmission say it's the BEST MT on the market. So, should the mere mortal like me worry about that gear spacing?
 

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Charles,
I just looked on Autotrader.ca
There are 4 2020+ cabs in MT in Canada. With crazy price points. Even if you were able to get the ecu readout and were able to identify over revs, would that sway you away from the purchase?
 

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I'm reading and learning so much from you guys but I ask you: would the "very average" 911 driver notice the "gear spacing between 3/5/7"? Unfortunately, I can't drive one in order to make my own opinion and the vids I've seen on the 992 manual transmission say it's the BEST MT on the market. So, should the mere mortal like me worry about that gear spacing?
I am there with you. Most people will not notice. Do you recall driving 5spd mts? So not tell me you have never gone from 4th to 3rd in error instead of 5th. Car did not like it. Now if the spacing is tight i can see going from 4 to 3 instead 5. When will you use 7th? On a highway at 130kms/h cruising at 1500rpms might as well drive a Cadillac. 😂
 

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I am there with you. Most people will not notice. Do you recall driving 5spd mts? So not tell me you have never gone from 4th to 3rd in error instead of 5th. Car did not like it. Now if the spacing is tight i can see going from 4 to 3 instead 5. When will you use 7th? On a highway at 130kms/h cruising at 1500rpms might as well drive a Cadillac. 😂
I don't even use the 6th gear on my Boxster! OK, maybe I did twice)! 😏
 

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If I was the only 100% driver of the gts I would still get the MT. Maybe I would hate it or love it. Still not fan of the long clutch pedal travel. I am trading in my MB GLE and will be driving the Macan 80% of my time (I go to the lake twice a week). The wife will putter around town in the gts and she prefers pdk. Compromises…….
 

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If I was the only 100% driver of the gts I would still get the MT. Maybe I would hate it or love it. Still not fan of the long clutch pedal travel. I am trading in my MB GLE and will be driving the Macan 80% of my time (I go to the lake twice a week). The wife will putter around town in the gts and she prefers pdk. Compromises…….
Exactly! Why do you think I chose Gentian blue? LOL! 🤪
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
If I was the only 100% driver of the gts I would still get the MT. Maybe I would hate it or love it. Still not fan of the long clutch pedal travel. I am trading in my MB GLE and will be driving the Macan 80% of my time (I go to the lake twice a week). The wife will putter around town in the gts and she prefers pdk. Compromises…….
The GTS in either box does not "putter" . It will be a night and day experience to your 991.2 base car . The clutch pedal also wont have a long travel and the shifter and throw are shorter in a GTS .
We are splitting hairs on two world class. gearbox setups .

However . the PDK will be :
1) Faster shifting and more precise
2) More street friendly and track advantaged
3) Create less wear on the engine
4) and a bargain ( in former cars PDK was an option ) Now both are included as equal.

Since I traded my car I am back in my manual 997.1 Turbo as a DAILY driver . I miss my PDK . Now Porsche has even made the manual where it can auto blip rev match downshifts no differently than PDK but on the upshift he loses boost and time . The manual has become an assisted manual , It amazes me is the praise given to the PDK features in use of a modern manual . Yes its efficient but not as efficient .

Its also one thing for a journalist to drive around in a car for a review the to use it every day for 5 years . You know very well that after that novelty erodes there will come that day when another 992 pulls alongside you and you both decide to sprint . The manual is handicapped and in world class act it shouldn't be . If you take it to the track the same thing will happen.

One more thing .. I have seen more guys blame the absence of a manual on their wife than I can count . Look at my thread from 13 years ago :ROFLMAO:

My wife can drive a manual . She loves both just like I do.

I would have been ok with a manual but I wanted more than ok . I wanted the best RWD street purposed 911 for ,me . It had PDK .
 

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The GTS in either box does not "putter" . It will be a night and day experience to your 991.2 base car . The clutch pedal also wont have a long travel and the shifter and throw are shorter in a GTS .
We are splitting hairs on two world class. gearbox setups .

However . the PDK will be :
1) Faster shifting and more precise
2) More street friendly and track advantaged
3) Create less wear on the engine
4) and a bargain ( in former cars PDK was an option ) Now both are included as equal.

Since I traded my car I am back in my manual 997.1 Turbo as a DAILY driver . I miss my PDK . Now Porsche has even made the manual where it can auto blip rev match downshifts no differently than PDK but on the upshift he loses boost and time . The manual has become an assisted manual , It amazes me is the praise given to the PDK features in use of a modern manual . Yes its efficient but not as efficient .

Its also one thing for a journalist to drive around in a car for a review the to use it every day for 5 years . You know very well that after that novelty erodes there will come that day when another 992 pulls alongside you and you both decide to sprint . The manual is handicapped and in world class act it shouldn't be . If you take it to the track the same thing will happen.

One more thing .. I have seen more guys blame the absence of a manual on their wife than I can count . Look at my thread from 13 years ago :ROFLMAO:

My wife can drive a manual . She loves both just like I do.

I would have been ok with a manual but I wanted more than ok . I wanted the best RWD street purposed 911 for ,me . It had PDK .
Nicely put.
I am locking my build this weekend!
 
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